Learn how United Flag Football League’s (UFFL) data-backed ranking system, national rule standardization, and community partnerships empower hundreds of sanctioned leagues to grow nationwide.
.svg){kind=icon}
Welcome to Episode #19 of the Sold Out podcast, where we interview league organizers across the country for tips on how to sell out and grow leagues.
In this episode, we’re joined by Norm from United Flag Football Leagues (UFFL), a national organization that supports flag football leagues across the United States. UFFL assists leagues with rule books, referee certifications, and operational guidance, aiming to create a cohesive experience for teams that participate in tournaments. Directors located in various regions organize tournaments, fostering local connections while UFFL provides broader support, including collaborations with city tourism and parks divisions to host events.
Norm shares insights on the growth of UFFL, from establishing a ranking system to experimenting with live-streamed tournaments. The discussion covers the importance of strong community ties, professional referees, and the operational model, which relies on player fees instead of sponsorships. Norm highlights the need for league organizers to actively promote and build relationships within their communities.
Key Takeaways:
Listen to the full episode now!
Below is the full transcript from this episode. The Sold Out Podcast is available on Spotify and Apple, or you can watch the entire interview on our YouTube Channel!
Tune in every other week to hear AREENA interview the country's best league organizers about their success in selling out leagues consistently.
--
Lance (00:01.867)
Alright, today we have Norm from United Flag Football. Thanks for being here, Norm. Let's get started with some of the basics. So what leagues are you running? Where are you running them? And how many teams do you have participating any given season?
Norm (00:16.423)
Yeah. United flag football league is a national organization. And what we do is we sanction leagues all over the United States. we have them from, you know, Washington state all the way down to Florida and California to up to Maine. So, you know, we, we assist leagues and league owners and league directors with rule books, certifications for referees. and what we do there is, is.
You know, our, our thought process is to help the leagues get started so that when teams want to go to tournaments or travel, then they can travel to our tournaments, which we put on probably 58 years all over the United States and they can go and play and they're already used to the rule book and you know, everything is the same across the board. so we average, you know,
Different tournaments bring different teams because in Texas, you know, you can do four fives and sevens along in Florida. You can do four fives and sevens. you get up in the Northeast, you got eight and nine, man. You don't have so much of the small ball. so it all depends on where you're at and you know, what the league is and what the, geographic location as to what the style will be as far as the tournament goes.
but we have a lot of teams in all divisions, you know, our national championships, we have four men, five men, four or five, six, sevens, eights and nines, men and women. So, you know, we are,
Lance (02:00.543)
Hmm.
Norm (02:05.447)
a vast array of different styles and different people all over the country.
Lance (02:12.429)
So you're sanctioning different leagues that are across the country but then you're putting on the tournaments or they're putting on tournaments and you're providing support or how does that?
Norm (02:22.326)
One of the things we like to do is we have a directors for UFFL and we encourage them to go out and, go to these different cities and different complexes. And we let, we support our directors to put on these tournaments to invite all the teams to travel to, to, you know, enjoy the tournament. so it's not as, I mean, UFFL sanctions the tournaments.
but we don't always, we let our directors do the work, and we support them.
Lance (03:01.257)
And so how are the directors, what is that relationship between you and the directors? Are they located all over the country in sort of different areas and what do they do?
Norm (03:14.125)
Yeah, no, I mean, you know, we have, directors, you know, depending, I will, we'll just take eight man, the head director, June Rios lives here in Florida. he was originally from Cleveland. we have directors, we have smoke and, Jeff that are in the DC area. we have, Richie, is.
I want to say out of the Cleveland area. and then the women's right now, we have, Aaron who's in Virginia beach. have key who's in the DC area, toast. Who's also in the Virginia area. you know, our four and fives and sevens, we have directors that are from the Carolinas and Florida.
we're trying to remember Tennessee. we also have small ball and large ball directors in the California or the West area. they're based out of central California, but they travel all over the, the West area. So
Lance (04:34.606)
So are these all employees of United Flag Football or is it a different kind of relationship?
Norm (04:40.739)
I wouldn't say they're employees. would say what, I mean, we don't give them a salary. allow them to do, know, we let them do the tournaments and by doing the tournaments, they get to collect the money and make the money at the tournaments. And that's way they support themselves. and we also feel that it's a good thing because, know, it, it gets them to get out there and go after it. I mean, the more, the more advertising, the more.
Lance (04:50.315)
Mm.
Norm (05:10.005)
you know, activity you bring to your tournament, the more money you can make.
Lance (05:15.093)
Yep, makes sense. I guess let's start, maybe go back a little bit. You mentioned before we started that you've been doing this for a long time. So how did this thing start and how did this sort of model that you have evolve?
Norm (05:28.898)
well, I actually started participating in flag football in 1982. I played for many years. I also rep for many years after I think it was somewhere in the early 2000s is when I moved more to the administrative, arena. I was the state director for, Florida flag football, for the state of Florida.
And I was also a national director for us FTL, which was United States flag and touch league, which was owned by Mike Seehan out of Cleveland. but, you know, I helped him run that. there were a bunch of others, you know, that, that were part of that, the directors. And that's where I learned a lot was through Mike and how, you know, you, you can have.
A league and you can sanction local leagues and stuff and get these directors to go be a part of that, not only to put on their own leagues, but also in their own tournaments. And that way you afford them to, allow them to get out there and, become part of the people and understand who they, you know, who their clientele is so that when, you know, we do our national tournament, you know, these guys have been in touch with or part of.
these people's lives. and that way, you know, when they come to a tournament, they say, yeah, we know the directors because you know, we've been to the tournaments before. so that's how we like to do it. And then, unfortunately, Mike passed away from cancer and, I decided that, you know, I was going to continue on with his, his cause and we got a bunch of us together.
Lance (07:05.537)
Mmm.
Norm (07:24.864)
we talked about it and that's where we joined, the UFFL, and my business partner, Billy Otte is out of Chicago. you know, he was real good in the eight man division. And, you know, I spoke to others, Jamie Wolf and Zerrick Foster, who are the nine man. Directors. you know, and we got together with all these different directors,
Jason Smith who's doing the fours and fives. jeez, James and Atlanta, just all kinds of everybody came together and said, you know, we really want to put this together and make a really good tournament environment for everybody. so, you know, we talked to everybody, got everybody, you know, to understand what.
our direction and what our ideas were and implement them. And, know, we go out and reach out to all these different cities and say, Hey, we'd like to bring flag football to your area. Cause we know that you have leagues and that you have people who are interested, you know, they come to our national championships. So we'd like to do something in your area. And that's where we start working in and figuring out what cities and where we're going to go.
Lance (08:49.087)
Interesting. you're talking to and sorry, I'm like not not as familiar. A lot of people have talked to, you know, they just run a local league or maybe they own a facility and and whatever. So I haven't talked to a ton of associations. So I'm curious about the details of the model. So you you go to a city, you said, and you're talking to the city like government, the parks and rec department and saying, hey, we want to bring. Yeah.
Norm (09:08.422)
Well, yeah, you, you end up talking to the tourism division. Then you talk to the parks and rec, you get them all three in the, you know, the government, the parks and rec and the tourist industry, you get them all in the same zoom call and say, okay, this is what we have to offer. This is what we're going to bring. and you know, this is what we'd like to do. Are y 'all interested in having this? I mean, you gotta understand, you know, these tournaments.
Lance (09:16.863)
Hmm.
Lance (09:34.401)
Mm.
Norm (09:36.967)
local leagues, not as much, but even, but the tournaments. I mean, when you bring a tournament to a city, you're bringing them taxable dollars, you know, and these are things are going into the, that they're general funds or their parks and rec funds. I've been to several cities where anything that does a tournament. Go straight into their parks and rec and man, they got fancy equipment. They got a lot of people working for them. They got fine facilities. others that just go straight into the.
general fund where, know, certain amount is allocated to parks and rec. so you, work with these people and you, and, know, you just, you kind of got to be a salesman. You know, they've got to be a salesman. You've got to be a salesman is kind of like, going to buy a new car. You know, you come on. I know your markup is way up here. This is what I'm willing to afford. You know, let's talk about it. So, you know, you go to the city and you talk to the.
Lance (10:12.289)
Mmm.
Norm (10:36.484)
tourist industry and just say, listen, you know, we need you to do this for us, you know, but we're going to bring this to you. So it's a happy medium. a, it's a real good barter system.
Lance (10:49.471)
Interesting. And so when you do this, what you're bringing to them is the tournament. It's all the players and the people and sort of the event itself. How do you get all those players? Is it something that's built over time because of these bigger national tournaments where you have this big database of players?
Norm (11:04.567)
Absolutely. It's it's where the, it, this is where we start at the bottom. The local directors, even, let's just take eight man, example, eight man has my, directors there. They have, the job of going out and talking to all the local leagues, Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo. mean, just.
Lance (11:10.721)
Mm.
Norm (11:34.356)
hundreds of them all over the, DC, Virginia, you know, you got to make the phone calls, get the captain's list, start talking to the captains. and then you start sending emails. Hey, listen, this is what we're doing. You know, follow us. You know, we don't, we don't really want to bother you a lot, but we want you to follow us. We want you to see what we're doing, where we're going. And you know, maybe you're interested in coming out.
But then again, like I said, it's, all about the local leagues. What can I do for you? Can I give you rule books? Can I give you a referee test or, you know, certifications? Can I give you, maybe you can send me your, your flyer and we'll post it for you and you know, advertise it so that when somebody who's coming out of college, you know, and doesn't make the NFL or, or the CFL or anything like that and said, yeah, I'd like to stay with football.
You know, and they click onto our website and they go, look, they got a league right here. You know where I'm at. Let me, let me call them and see if I can get a contact. And, know, we'll tell them, Hey, listen, you know, contact this director and you know, maybe he can fit you on a team or, know, whatever we do, we, we try and be an outlet for everybody from the very bottom, all the way to the top. And the top being our national championships. So, you know, we, we stay in touch with everybody. We.
Lance (12:52.843)
Mmm.
Norm (12:59.303)
We reach out to leagues, we reach out to teams. You know, we asked teams, what league are you playing in? You know, and, and you're in where in West Virginia, there's a league there. Okay, great. We need to contact them. We need to be a part of that. You know, so you, you never know where these leagues are. So you got to reach out and talk to these people. They know what goes on in their towns. They know what goes on in their counties and you know, their area of the state. you know, they, they are the lifeblood for everybody.
Lance (13:18.753)
Sure.
Lance (13:28.577)
Hmm. Got it. So you guys kind of act as the connecting sort of tissue of this whole community really from
Norm (13:34.511)
We try and bring it. Yeah. You try and bring it all together from the very bottom. And, know, teams love to come and play, against other States, against other teams, you know, people they don't see very often. You know, and, and we've got teams that come out of Florida and Texas. We've got teams that come out of the Northeast that will travel. You know, let's just say out West.
Lance (13:50.795)
Yeah, yeah.
Norm (14:02.35)
just because they want to go out there and see what's out there, enjoy the town, enjoy the environment, but find out what kind of football is being played out there. You never know.
Lance (14:12.725)
Yep. And this is all adult, right? Or is there any youth component to what you do?
Norm (14:17.878)
No, we are not youth yet. We are only adults.
Lance (14:22.081)
When you say yet, does that mean you're intending to or?
Norm (14:24.11)
Yeah, there's an iron in that fire. Yes, sir.
Lance (14:31.722)
Got it. That's interesting. I I imagine this is, these are pretty competitive teams if they're willing to get together and travel to another state to play. that, is that generally the...
Norm (14:42.659)
Listen.
The, the a divisions in any division, whether it's four men up to nine men, these guys are studs, the women, they are incredible. just to watch them play football, just the women to watch them play football, which is not a natural sport supposedly for women, but yet, you know, if you were to come to any one of our tournaments, you would have a different.
opinion after watching these games, super athletic, super strong, fast. mean, just incredible football being played. mean, just you can sit and watch a woman's game and be more excited than watching a men's You know, granted men, you know, the, a division, these guys are probably college or pro athletes, but if the women were ever to have a professional league, you know,
Lance (15:32.651)
Yeah.
Norm (15:43.832)
These would be the girls that would be playing. So, you know, it, the a division is really, really, you know, the D one division is what we call it. D one is, is your super athletes. They're great teams. They've been together. They got unity. They've got, you know, they practice, they know who does what and where and how to be, your D two is.
Really good athletes. they just haven't gotten all the nuts and bolts yet to put the team together. and your D three is more of a recreational type of guys that like to play football. still want to be a part of the system and you know, they come out and they have a lot of fun. So, you know, it's between.
The three divisions, I mean, there's a difference in talent level, but not in enthusiasm.
Lance (16:49.185)
Got it. So it's not like a lot of brand new people that are like, I'm just going to try out flag football. mean, all of these teams, even in D3, are pretty somewhat serious players. they play locally, probably in a league, and it's probably not their first time to play flag football. Is that correct?
Norm (17:06.11)
Yeah. I mean, it's very, very, very rare to find a team that there are a bunch of guys that saw an ad said, flag football. go jump into national championships and see what we can do. Very rare. Most of them play leagues. some of might be a small town league and then they go, okay, let's, let's go see what the rest of the nation's doing.
Lance (17:19.585)
Yeah.
Norm (17:30.27)
But yeah, most of them have been playing in local league somewhere in the United States and then come to the national championship. Now there are tournaments, that local people will jump in. And that's, that's where you find, the guys that were see the flyer in the gym and go, Hey, you know, Jimmy Bob, let's, let's get the old boys from the high school together and go out and throw the ball around and see what, you know, see what we got, you know,
That's where you find the first timers showing up and, know, getting indoctrinated into flag football and traveling.
Lance (18:10.325)
Yeah, yeah. So it seems like so much of this is rooted in this national championship you've kind of mentioned. So how did the national championship start? Has that been an ongoing tournament for a long time that has just kind of been like, this is the best of the best. It's in a certain city every year. What's the national championship like?
Norm (18:27.593)
Yeah. I mean, the national championships, I want to say, I don't quote me and please, nobody on this podcast trying back check me. All right. But I want to say it was the early seventies, or mid seventies when us FTL put themselves together. and Mike didn't even own it. He was actually playing in it. I started playing it in 83.
And it was the best of the best. it at one time was invitation only where you had to be a state champion or a, a runner up first, second or third. And those were the only teams that were invited. so as it grew, they started saying, well, you know, let's, let's open it up to two different teams that, know,
There were some States in some areas that, know, the top five teams were better than the number one team from somewhere else. And they weren't getting invited. It's kind of like the old, well, the championship bowl series, you know, a lot of teams were being left at home because they only picking four. Right. so we got away from that and we offered everything to everybody. And that's when it started to really grow and Mike started expanding, into different divisions.
and you know, of course, once you start doing that, then you've got to go and find bigger complexes to, you know, hold all the fields and the different styles and get more people to work the tournament, for directors and stuff. it, it was ever evolving and it still is honestly. it is an ever evolving sport. so you, you kind of got to keep up with everything on the fly. so.
Lance (20:20.651)
Yeah. Yep.
Norm (20:21.817)
You know, we, we kind of picked up from us FTL after Mike's passing and, know, went from there. So we already had a, I would say a good, house built. We just had to move in and expand it. So that's how we did. And like I said, when, I got with a lot of the top minds in flag football.
Lance (20:43.573)
Yeah.
Norm (20:51.048)
And said, okay, how are going to do this? How do we put this together? You know, I'm willing to put the money out to get this started and, you know, sustain it until we can really, you know, making everything work. But, you know, I need the commitment from, you know, all of y 'all and they did, they committed, they were all in and they still are. so we're, working hard to, to ever evolve the sport. mean, even the old guys.
Calling the young guys. Hey man, what's, what's the talk on the street? You know, what's, are the people wanting? I mean, just like you and I are talking on a podcast. My God, if we'd have thought, you'd have brought up the word podcast in eighties, we'd have been looking at each other like, what are you talking about? You know what I'm saying? But, nowadays it's changed and you, you're, you're working really hard to keep up with everything. I mean, social media is the thing that's.
Lance (21:32.228)
you
Yeah.
Norm (21:48.17)
Everybody's social media. I mean back when we started I can remember directors of tournaments. They would mail the flyer to you
And as soon as you got the flyer, you wrote a check and you mailed it back to them. Cause you wanted to get in that tournament. You know, I mean, we only had phones. you, you calling, parks and rec, Hey, can I talk to skip and did you get my check to get my check? I in nowadays? It's you've got so many different social medias and different ways to get in and be a part of tournaments that, you the sports evolving.
Lance (22:04.041)
Yeah, yeah, yep.
Lance (22:15.585)
Yeah.
Lance (22:26.869)
Yeah, well I guess that's a good segue into the topic of evolution. So you're talking about how things have evolved in terms of people's registering and sending in checks and even now things are continuing. what do you think have been the big changes, I guess recently, and where do you think the sport's going? You mentioned you might get into youth. That sounds like an evolution for you guys.
What are some of the things you've seen in terms of how the sports evolved, how technology is changing things, and where do think it's going to go in the next five years?
Norm (23:01.409)
Well, I mean, let's, okay. We'll start with advertising first. You're advertising whereas the United States mail service is now obsolete and it is. Podcast it's a live streaming, you know, guys getting together talking about, certain things in flag football. You've got so many different groups that, you know, get together and talk and say, you know, Hey,
You know, we see this, we see that, or they talk about tournaments. then you've got, just the social media itself. I don't want to give kudos to anybody, but just, you know, your Facebook, Instagram, your tick tocks, all those different things. You throw your flyer on it. Everybody sees it now. You only got to do it once. Whereas, you know, back in the old days, you had to mail out 60 flyers and pray for, you know, 20 teams.
Lance (23:56.513)
Yeah.
Norm (23:57.664)
Now you put that stuff out and you got 60 teams calling you that are, you know, hitting you up on your, your DM or your, you know, emails or, know, all those other ways to connect, the next day. So, I mean, you're filling up your tournament within a week and you still got a month to go. but I mean, just the, the, the big.
Lance (24:22.945)
Yep.
Norm (24:28.052)
the, the setup to the tournament, you know, getting it set up, the advertising and everything. That's so much different than the old days. So much different. and it amazes me too, cause it's funny, but my young guys will get up and say, know, Hey pops, you know, we threw this out on this and I'm like, what the hell is that? You know, where do you find that? I have never heard of it never seen it, but you know,
Lance (24:52.204)
Yeah.
Norm (24:57.257)
They they're in with it. They know what they're talking, you know, and they get it out there on social media. thing about tournaments. if you don't go to a tournament, you just click on the website, the Facebook or whatever, and you watch the game live streaming. You know, you, you can actually re you can actually request, you know, the tournament director. Hey, do you mind filming, you know, team a against team B.
Or live streaming it so we can watch it. It's just, it's incredible that, you know, everything is instantaneous compared to back in the day where, you know, Weeks could go on before anything really happened, but you know, live streaming, podcast.
Lance (25:44.481)
Sure, yeah.
Norm (25:53.022)
people talking, going live on Facebook, things like that. And believe me, I am missing a lot of stuff because I don't know. And I don't understand it. All right. So, you know, talking to a guy who's 63 years old about technology, you might as well be pounding your foot in the ground. Cause I have no idea. Some of these, some of these things that they do. and I just, okay. So, all right, you say it, works. It's social media. Go ahead. Put it out there.
Lance (26:04.601)
Yeah.
Lance (26:22.262)
The live streaming though, that's interesting. did that, is that something that you do for all the national tournaments or now even some of the local ones people want to, it makes sense. mean, if a team, if a team's going to travel, you know, several hundred miles or a thousand miles to go play somewhere they might, you know, want it recorded and want their friends or family to be able to see it. So,
Norm (26:31.171)
yeah.
Norm (26:42.35)
absolutely. And that's one of the things we just did a tournament in Palm coast, Florida this weekend, that I was at and we were recording all the championship games, you know, so that the people could see and watch and, know, here and, and, you know, be a part of, so even if it's the smallest of tournaments and all the way up to the national championships.
people are live streaming and sending it out so that, know, you and I who can't make it can actually still watch the games.
Lance (27:12.449)
Yeah.
Lance (27:23.693)
Do you have any advice for somebody who wants to do that? Wants to start setting up some live streams? Is a particular technology or is it just, you know, there's a bunch of them and how does that look?
Norm (27:33.808)
Wish I could help you and instruct you on that. My directors all know about it, you know? and I'd be more than happy to set up a podcast and kind of like get a room with my directors and you could get a really good, integration of, of all that stuff that the social media and all that stuff and how they use it and what they do. But, I know that live streaming is a.
Lance (27:40.737)
Okay, sure.
Lance (27:56.789)
Yeah.
Norm (28:03.333)
Big, big part people like to see that, people, you know, just, let's just say the Chicago teams are, you know, don't come to a tournament down in DC, but because it's being live stream, they're all sitting at the, you know, picnic or, they're sitting at their house or whatever. And they're watching the tournament and the teams that are playing in that tournament and enjoying, you know,
Lance (28:07.851)
Yeah.
Norm (28:33.285)
Heck, even doing some scouting, you know?
Lance (28:36.065)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there anything that connects all these teams in a sense of some sort of like, I don't know, point system or anything? is it, you know, they might see each other at the national championship or one of these big tournaments and play there, but is there anything sort of connecting a bunch of the teams across the nation?
Norm (28:54.217)
yeah, no, we, we have a ranking system, that the leagues get so many points for their league. And then if you go to a tournament, get, you know, more points for attending in a tournament and participating and winning in a tournament. So yeah, you gather points all year long so that when you come to the national championships, everybody's ranked. So there's nobody, you know, no reason to say that, you know, I shouldn't be playing them, you know, or that, you know,
Lance (28:57.173)
Yep.
Norm (29:23.617)
It's the rankings and you see it every week.
Lance (29:25.473)
Sure, and that affects the... Yeah, that's what affects seeding and all that at these... Yeah, Cool, interesting. And is there stat tracking involved as well as streaming for some of these top teams? I imagine they probably care a lot about stats.
Norm (29:30.212)
Right, yes.
Norm (29:46.36)
Yes and no. most of them keep their own stats. it's very hard to have a stat tracker on each field because it, you almost got to know the players. And when you're putting on a tournament and you've got so many different teams coming from different areas, it's like, well who, who's who just caught that ball or who just intercepted that ball or scored. And you know, it's,
Lance (29:50.901)
Mm.
Norm (30:16.677)
Some of your smaller tournaments. Yes. Local leagues do it a lot just for, you know, kudos and to give the, the, league trophy out to somebody and say, know, Hey, you had so many touchdowns or whatever. but these big tournaments, everybody knows who the players are. So they know who the money man is on whatever team, but keeping track of stats is very tough with,
big tournaments. we've tried it. It's just something that unless everybody's wearing exactly the same jerseys and stuff and numbers and names and everything like that, it's just hard to keep track of.
Lance (31:01.739)
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. In our system, we have two apps that are a part of ours, and one is just for staff. And you check players in games like that, select their jersey number, make sure it's updated, and then you can keep it. But you still have the operational challenge of you've got to have somebody there at every field set up ready to take those stats. And so there's,
Norm (31:21.048)
yeah. And the neat thing about it is also is that, all right. All of our teams have two or three different Jersey colors, you know, and not everybody remembers to bring their green shirt. they'll borrow and you went from number four now to 34. And it's like, well, you know, now I'm giving Billy Bob all your stats because you're wearing this Jersey.
Lance (31:30.816)
Yeah.
Lance (31:46.257)
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, I'm curious about the sort of the financial system. Like, how does this whole thing work? So you're sanctioning tournaments and you're sanctioning leagues. Your directors are out there putting stuff together, connecting everybody, building these things. But I mean, how does the money flow? Because I imagine sponsorships are probably also, especially for the national championships, are a big part of it. So is that the ecosystem? Is players are still?
They're paying fees to go and play, maybe they have their own sponsor, they're sponsors for the national championships. How does the sort of money flow, I guess, in this kind of system?
Norm (32:22.083)
Yeah. The teams all have, you hope they have sponsors or, or, you know, money guy. and what they do is they, they register and that's there, you know, they wear the sponsor shirt or his name or whatever. hopefully. but yeah, I mean, we at UFFL have not had a sponsor yet. And our first five years, we've.
Lance (32:29.931)
Mm
Norm (32:50.263)
We've worked on some, but we really never have pursued it. because we really like to stay more grassroots and not, not, dependent on a sponsor. If we get one, we really like it because, know, of course it adds funds to the tournament and it adds money that we can use to do certain things, but we like to use our budget and, and we work on.
Just the team fees themselves and you know, the, players pay their coach, the coach pays the team fee and they register through event connect. And you know, that's how that goes.
Lance (33:31.701)
So pretty much all of y 'all's revenue comes from player fees for these tournaments and then do the leagues that get sanctioned by you guys, do they also pay some sort of or do some insurance type stuff? I think I've heard of that as well or...
Norm (33:45.682)
We don't.
We were going to do that. We tried it. We did not find it to be, beneficial to the league. I mean, we're still exploring something that, know, if you, if you pay a sanctioning fee, you get certain amount of things here and there. but. You know, it's, it's tough. just sanctioned leagues and let them send us their results.
They use our logo and then we, you know, post their results and the rankings. So, you know, it's not really that a team is paying us a sanctioning fee.
Lance (34:33.567)
Okay, so it's just all registration fees from teams that want to come and...
Norm (34:36.756)
Right. Yep.
Lance (34:41.057)
Interesting. I guess if, you know, just to bring this to a level that's maybe really helpful for somebody, you know, maybe listening to this, if I was in Dallas and I wanted to start a flag football league just from scratch, how would you advise that I go about that and I want to maybe be involved in UFFL? What would that look like?
Norm (35:01.331)
Well, you would give us a call. and like I said, we would figure out, would recommend to you the style in the area only because, know, you starting a nine man league in Dallas might not work because Dallas for all sakes and purposes is a non -contact area, which is four man, five man and seven man. so we would help you with that. We would provide you with the rule books. we would promote your league.
Lance (35:24.0)
Hmm.
Norm (35:31.005)
saying, Hey, this is going to start up in October. And, know, this is, you know, you want to get ahold of Lance and say, okay, this is his number, his email and you know, what do we got to do to put a team in? And, you know, we would help you step by step as to how to set it up, what to do and, any of anything else we could help you with. If we, you know, need to, if you need us to.
call Parks and Rec and say, you're a legitimate idea and we're backing you as a national organization, then we will do that.
Lance (36:08.283)
Are there any things that you see that make people more successful or less successful when they're going through that process to start something up? Are there sort of keys that certain kind of people do certain kinds of things just hustle more to make things happen or any kind of special tips I guess?
Norm (36:26.865)
I mean, hustle is the main thing. Getting to know your captains, getting to know, you know, your area, your demographics, as far as, know, what, what's being played in that area. and, and yeah, it's all hustle, man. It's it's calling it's it's the old system of cold calling and you know, this is what I'm putting together, putting your flyers out in the gym, putting your flyers out at the seven 11, you know, wherever.
You know, your social media, you know, trying to put groups together or get with certain people and say, listen, is there a flag football group in my area or our area? Can you throw me in there or can you advertise this for us? and then of course we'll come in and also assist in any way we can.
Lance (37:21.909)
And when you say come in, is there ever somebody local that would come and help or is this kind of, you'll come in, somebody could give you a call or how does that?
Norm (37:30.129)
Well, both it depends, you know, in, the Dallas area, yeah, we actually have two people out there right now. They're very, once a director, once a head ref. so, you know, we can get them to pay you a visit and, and help you get things started.
Lance (37:47.819)
And that includes like the, I know the referees for a lot of people can be challenging, trying to find a good pool.
Norm (37:52.669)
Referees, you know, I always tell my, is, and I learned this from Mike Sihon. He says there are three things that are going to make a tournament or a league profitable, or at least well liked is that when the player drives into the facility, he sees lush green grass, a wonderful facility.
You know, bathrooms, everything, a wonderful facility, good parking, things like that. And then, know, okay, well, this looks really nice. Second thing is when they get out, they see referees, professional referees. And I don't want to say professional meaning, you know, they have to be NFL, but they're professional in the way they handle themselves. And the fact that they know the rules, they dress the part. They, you know, act the part and they make.
Your experience as good as possible. And then the third one is leadership. They see the same people that they know are reliable, good, hardworking tournament directors or lead directors. So if they see those three things, they're comfortable and they're ready to play good football.
And that's the three things that we strive to make sure are available to either the directors in leagues or in tournaments.
Lance (39:25.931)
And how do you do that on the ref side? Do you guys have just a database of referees or do you...
Norm (39:31.007)
We have a database. Yes, we have a database and we're also, Constantly sending rule books out to the, to the guys. And you know, if people, if guys come up and say, listen, we want to be referees. All right. Well, here's a local tournament. We'd like to see your ref in. And let's just see what you, what you do and how you handle yourself. And, you know, we talked to them beforehand and just throw out a scenario. What do you think? What's the.
You know, what's the rule on this? What, do you act? I mean, I've got one of my, get Zarek Foster is one of the greatest ref directors in the ever in flag football. He even calls me up and questions me just to make sure I've still been reading the rule book and I like Zarek really come on, please. And he said, I don't know. Come on. You got it. You got to talk to me about this. And we're, constantly going through the rule book to make sure that.
Lance (40:19.499)
Yeah.
Norm (40:32.019)
Everything is in order and not that you have a rule that says one thing here, but you go four pages down and it says a little bit different here. You got to make it all consolidated in the same. and we have several people that work on that. Zerrick being one of the main ones, Brandon coming tonight at Dallas is another one, Robbie Hudson out of Charlotte, and Steve Benfield also out of Charlotte.
Those four guys, they get together, they go through rule books, you know.
mind boggling how, how many times they read those rule books to make sure that we're not counterproductive with each other. And, so, you know, like I said, the rules have got to be the same from San Diego to Miami to Maine, to Seattle. mean, they gotta all be the same that way. When let's just say a Florida team says, you know what? Let's go have some fun and go out to LA.
Lance (41:13.958)
Yep.
Norm (41:39.03)
They know the rules are the same. You know, so they know exactly what they're doing.
Lance (41:39.823)
Yep. Yep.
Yep. And then y 'all are providing, what do call it, certifications for these referees and...
Norm (41:53.32)
We are in the process of putting a certification out for all of our referees. Right now we do a, internal testing. but yes, we're going to come up with a actual certification on the website that will be run by a, several of our, our top referees. And from there, you know, the refs will go in, they will take their tests. They will, you know,
For whatever style they want to be involved in. And, from there, we'll start picking referees to, you know, do, do tournaments and all that. So we will be reaching out to all corners of the. nation to get these reps and teams like to hear that they want to know that they're certified, they're certified. That means they've read the rule book. They've taken a test and they passed it. Now, can anybody know every rule?
Lance (42:46.011)
Yep. Yeah.
Norm (42:52.202)
Sit down to the letter. No, but that's why you haven't a director who's at the tournament or at the league who's carrying the rule book who says, okay, well, let's flip to page five and see exactly what it says. You know, and that way, you know, it's kind of like the replay in the NFL. Let's take a half a second break. Let's look up the rule and make sure that we called it right.
Lance (43:13.381)
Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, know referees can be a big sore point and if they're off or they're not aligned and I've seen this in some leagues where they're calling things different from one game to the next, that's a huge...
Norm (43:27.706)
Referees will make or break your system. They will make or break you. I'm telling you right now, they can put a, you could be an organization with hundreds of thousands of dollars and some of the greatest facilities in the world. You let a referee or referees come in and screw up games and mess up a tournament. Nobody will come back.
Nobody will come back and I'll tell you what you will be ripped apart on social media like a shark feeding frenzy
Lance (44:04.405)
Yeah, I guess with flag football there's there's that rule books probably pretty thick and there's there's a lot going on that people need to be Diled in some sports, you know if it's kickball or something It's probably not as as big a deal to have you know, but but flag football I imagine that you know people are pretty
Norm (44:21.225)
our code of conduct, just the code of conduct. Part of the rule book is 12 pages.
Lance (44:27.567)
Yeah. Yep.
Norm (44:30.333)
That covers everything you can think of being stupid -wise at a tournament as a player.
But you know, our seven man rule book, I want to say is like 22 pages, four and five man is maybe like seven, 16, 17 pages eight man. I think that one's 30 something. so yeah, it's, it's, it's detailed, very detailed. And like I said, evolve. You watch a game and something happens in the game. And even when you look in the rule book, it's like.
Lance (44:58.863)
Yep.
Norm (45:06.909)
Wow. It's kind of covered, but it's not exactly covered. So after the tournament, you get the referees together and say, okay, first off what happened. And then second off, all right, what do we get? How are we going to work this so that we cover it? And it's something that, you know, can be implemented nicely and quickly without disrupting the entire system.
Lance (45:32.101)
Yep. Yeah, so you're constantly taking in feedback, iterating, making it better.
Yeah. Awesome. I think that's all the questions that I got. That was a lot of really good tips and I think could be pretty useful for somebody trying to operate in this space. And yeah, I appreciate your time and sharing all the insights.
Norm (45:39.428)
yes.
Norm (45:56.069)
Yeah. I mean, anybody who's looking into flag football and you know, even if it's not flag football, like you said, kickball, softball, whatever it's all tournament. You know, it's all the same. It's just a different sport. You know, you've got to, you've got to, you know, put the effort in to make it successful and make it a reoccurring thing where, you know, if you're going to be a traveling group like us.
Lance (46:12.87)
Yep.
Norm (46:24.453)
You know, you, you've got to be able to tell the cities and you know, Hey, listen, we're wanting a three to five year deal, you know, and you put on a really good tournament and you know, lock them down. You know, we want to come here three, three to five years that way, you know, our football teams know, you know, we're going to such and such every year at this time of year.
So they can kind of make their plans and things like that, but you just really gotta, you know, be persistent in what you're doing and hold the course. but you know, anybody who's interested, please contact United flag football league. and we're more than happy to get all this going for you.
The AREENA app and leagues offer an immersive rec sports experience for adults, with stat tracking, skill matching, leaderboards and team messaging. Subscribe and play soccer or basketball year round, or pay by game or match with zero commitments.
